How They Get You: The Everyday Money Traps (And How To Beat Them)

 

In this episode of Get Rich, Molly Benjamin sits down with finance journalist and creator Chris Kohler (700k+ on Instagram) to unpack the sneaky ways Australians lose money without even noticing. Based on Chris book How They Get You, this chat covers the everyday “money traps” hiding in plain sight, from subscription creep and food delivery markups, to loyalty programs that don’t truly reward you, drip pricing, and the psychology of tap-and-go spending.

You’ll learn how modern payments and marketing are designed to make spending feel painless, why “being loyal” can cost you more, and what small habits quietly blow up your budget over time. Chris also shares his simple “Hell Day” strategy, a practical system for negotiating bills and cutting recurring costs in one focused hit.

If you want to feel more confident, more in control, and way harder for companies to “get”, this episode is a must-listen.

PS – I get asked constantly for a good mortgage broker or financial adviser, so we finally did something about it.

We’ve just launched our new directory of trusted, vetted financial professionals we genuinely recommend.

It’s live now you’ll find the link here 👉 https://directory.ladiesfinanceclub.com/ 

 

CHAPTERS

00:00 – Welcome + Molly’s money story
01:15 – Chris Kohler joins, what this ep covers
01:45 – Molly’s plug, trusted broker/adviser directory (show notes)
02:22 – How Chris started the money videos
03:45 – Writing How They Get You, what it was like
04:48 – The big truth, you must be an active consumer
06:05 – Negotiating, why people don’t ask (and should)
08:33 – Subscription creep, the quiet budget killer
09:11 – Food delivery markups, convenience is pricey
10:18 – Quick win, cancel hidden phone/app subscriptions
11:05 – Gambling, the “normal” habit costing big money
12:45 – Lotto mindset, invest it instead
13:05 – Drip pricing, why flights and tickets sting
14:18 – Gaming microtransactions, kids and spending traps
16:57 – Tap-and-go, why spending feels painless now
19:18 – Teaching kids money without cash
19:45 – Loyalty programs, why loyalty rarely pays
29:18 – Quick-fire money takes (BNPL, super, fees, gambling apps)
31:14 – “Hell Day”, one day to renegotiate everything
33:16 – Molly’s $126 win, proof it pays to ask
34:11 – What we should’ve learned earlier, investing basics
35:46 – Where to buy the book + follow Chris
36:30 – Funny wrap, mums moving books on shelves

  

LINKS FROM THE EPISODE

Money Smart - Budget Plan: https://moneysmart.gov.au/budgeting/budget-planner
ACCC guidance on fees and pricing: https://www.accc.gov.au/business/pricing
Gambling Help Online: https://www.gamblinghelponline.org.au/

 

CONNECT WITH CHRIS KOHLER

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kohler-chris
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriskohlernews/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61581617493846&ref=PROFILE_EDIT_xav_ig_profile_page_web#
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ChrisKohlerNews
Book: https://www.penguin.com.au/books/how-they-get-you-9781761356414

 

CONNECT WITH LADIES FINANCE CLUB

Join our free Facebook group - Ladies Finance Club Money Chat
Website: https://www.ladiesfinanceclub.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ladiesfinanceclub/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/ladies-finance-club/

 

 

 

TAKEAWAYS

• The importance of being an active participant in financial decisions.
• Subscriptions can lead to unexpected financial leaks.
• Food delivery services often come with significant markups.
• Gambling is a major financial issue in Australia.
• Cashless transactions can lead to invisible spending.
• Loyalty programs often do not provide real value.
• Women are often better at managing money than perceived.
• Investing knowledge is lacking in financial education.
• The property market has emotional and financial implications.
• Negotiating with banks and service providers can lead to savings.

 

SOUND BITES

"Food delivery costs 45% more."
"Women are very good at money."
"Investing is not taught enough."

 

TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Molly: Welcome to Get Rich, the podcast that helps you do just that. Get rich and stay rich. Hey, I'm Molly Benjamin. I'm the founder of Ladies Finance Club, one of Australia's largest financial education platforms for women. But before I started helping thousands of women take control with their money, I was a hot financial mess when it came to my own finances and not the fun kind of hot, more like crying in a supermarket, wondering where all my money went kind of hot.

[00:00:29] But here's the thing, if I can go from financial mess to owning a share portfolio, investing in property, and building wealth. Then you can too. My mission is simple to make women rich because when we have financial freedom, we have choices, confidence, and control over our future. Every week on Get Rich, I sit down with some of the best experts in the industry to break down how we can all start investing, growing our money, and creating long-term financial security without the jargon, boring bits or overwhelm.

[00:01:02] Because when women get rich, we don't just change our lives. We change the world. So if you're ready to start making some Smart Money moves, hit that subscribe button and let's get Rich together.

[00:01:15] Welcome to Get Rich at the podcast That helps you do just that. Get rich and stay rich. I'm Molly Benjamin. I'm a founder of Ladies Finance Club, and in this episode I'm joined by financial journalist Chris coa.

[00:01:26] Author of How They Get You, he's just bought this fantastic book out. So today we're uncovering the sneaky ways money disappears without us even realizing you're gonna learn why spending feels easier than ever. How everyday habits like tap and go subscriptions loyalty programs quietly cost us thousands.

[00:01:45] And why being a good customer is often the worst of financial move you can make. And if you don't follow Chris on socials, I have to say he is hilarious. So I'll pop all the links in the show notes where you can follow along. Also, on a side note, I get asked at least five times a day for a good mortgage broker.

[00:02:04] Molly, I need a financial advisor. Molly, I need a money coach. So we've built one place to find them all. We've just launched our new directory of trusted, vetted financial professionals. We love and highly recommend, so you can check them out in the show notes as well. All right, let's get. Into this week's episode.

[00:02:22] Well, Chris, welcome to the Get Rich podcast. We are very excited to have you on.

[00:02:27] Chris: I'm excited to be with you, Molly. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:29] Molly: Now you've got over 700,000 followers on Instagram, over a hundred thousand followers on TikTok. So I would love to know like what actually led you to write this book and actually start sharing these fun videos online in the, like what, what started it all?

[00:02:49] Chris: Look, the videos came first, I guess. I'm a finance journalist and have been for a long time and I was kind of covering a lot of, a lot of the key finance stories in Australia in a very professional way, you know, tied dun up microphone in hand, whether it was for newspapers originally or TV afterwards.

[00:03:06] And after a while I just sort. Decided that maybe it would be a bit of fun to try some different ways of telling the stories. I would come home from work quite often and, um, and find myself talking to my wife, Susanna, about the stories that I was doing and would kind of be talking to her about them in the, in the sort of ways that I found them to be funny and silly.

[00:03:27] Rather than serious. And I ended up kind of, the first video I did was I, um, I sticky taped Philip Lowe's name to my chest and I did interest rates on the blind behind me. And I hiked them up while dancing around to pump up the jam. And um, you know, a lot of people watched it and shared it with their mates.

[00:03:45] So that was, um. A kind of a moment where I thought, oh, okay, you can have a bit of fun and be a bit silly with this stuff too. And then the book came as an extension of, you know, just, I suppose, speaking with your own voice about these things.

[00:03:56] Molly: Fantastic. And how did you find the book writing process? 'cause I know through my journey, I'm like, anyone who writes a book, I'm like, well done you.

[00:04:04] It's such a mission sometimes.

[00:04:06] Chris: It can be, yeah. It's a big thing to go into, but I found it to be more fun than I was expecting it to be. Yeah. I thought it would be kind of a, a trudge through this thing, but I think a lot of people will, will say that once you get onto a role, there's a lot of enjoyment to be had.

[00:04:20] You know, it's a very different thing writing it to then editing it and, and making some changes. But, you know, I got to know the. The people in my local cafe quite well at, you know, six in the morning every Saturday. And yeah, I, I've really gotta thank my wife actually because we do, we've got two little kids and it was my second, our little girl was born just over a year ago.

[00:04:40] And that was when I said to su, Hey, maybe I could, um hmm, maybe I could write this book. And uh, and so she had to do a lot of the heavy lifting as well. So that I could do it.

[00:04:48] Molly: Love it. A real team effort. So I guess if we are looking big picture, if someone read your book and took away one big thing, maybe like a slightly uncomfortable truth about how money and the economy actually works, what would you want that to be?

[00:05:04] Chris: Well, the book is 24 chapters of, of kind of narrow focus on a specific thing, each chapter. So there's obviously like there's a thing in each chapter to, to think about or to do differently or, or to kind of change the way that you are a consumer. But I suppose the big picture thing would be.

[00:05:19] Unfortunately, the way things are set up, you have to be an active participant in your own business to really have any success at all. I mean, the passive ones are the ones who get charged the bad interest rates. They get charged all the extra fees. They're the ones who get taken for a ride on dodgy discounts that aren't real.

[00:05:36] Unfortunately, the thing that I would like the book to be taken as is. That you've gotta be your own advocate. You've really gotta get your hands dirty and you've gotta kind of, you've gotta be an active and a bit of a pain in the ass consumer sometimes to get anywhere.

[00:05:51] Molly: Absolutely. And we are big advocates for that at Ladies Finance Club.

[00:05:55] We're always like, negotiate, negotiate, negotiate. Yeah. And I'm always surprised with how many people actually say, can I do that? I'm like, you absolutely can and you should be.

[00:06:05] Chris: It's so true. I mean, we're kind of led to believe, certainly. When you're dealing with a big super fund or a big bank or anyone who's kind of dealing with debt in that sort of way that they are always right and that you have very few cards and, and there's sort of this really lopsided interaction.

[00:06:21] And I think the more people who can kind of slow things down and do them on their terms and, and just sort of remember that they do have, have rights and they do have kind of a voice. It's the best way it can be. I mean, I think, um, yeah, that's been probably the most gratifying thing about the, the few months that the book's been out is people saying, yeah, hey, I, um, I called my bank and I gave 'em a hard time and now I've saved a lot of money.

[00:06:44] How good's that, or insurance or super or whatever it may be.

[00:06:48] Molly: Yeah.

[00:06:48] Chris: But you're right, it's not enough of a kind of, um. It's not out there enough and I think it's because it's such a pain and a hassle to do.

[00:06:55] Molly: Yeah. And I think also what I see is we're quite trusting in the systems and I just an example from when I was in the uk, um, working for a bank at the time, I remember they had one of the worst performing pensions.

[00:07:09] In the country and it's not what you'd think for a leading bank in a country. And so you've really, as you said, you've really gotta be your own advocate and actually, you know, take that time out to get down and. Dirty with the numbers.

[00:07:22] Chris: It's so true. I mean, Molly, you would've known, I mean, if it's a big bank like that, then they also would've had a massive marketing budget, an advertising budget, right?

[00:07:29] And so they're able to spray their positive message everywhere. And getting the sort of the real negatives out is very difficult. And that's kind of one of the main reasons I started doing the videos too, is that I just saw. Just a massive increase in the amount of marketing money that was getting thrown around and the, and the amounts of places and times that we were getting sold.

[00:07:48] Positive messages about these institutions, whether it's social media or when you're in the car or watching tv, wherever at the footy. And so I thought, well, what if we did some anti ads, which would be the opposite of what this company was putting out there. To me, it's a lot about marketing as well.

[00:08:04] Molly: Yeah, and I think also what I love so much about your videos are that it's the storytelling.

[00:08:09] Like you're actually explaining something very complicated concepts and really easy to. Terms, which again, we are all about at Ladies Finance. Oh,

[00:08:18] Chris: that's very nice. Thank

[00:08:19] Molly: you. Absolutely. And so what do you think is a couple of the most common way people are losing money without even realizing it? So not like the big dramatic stuff, but more like the small boring leaks that really add up over time.

[00:08:33] Chris: I've got a bit of an issue with the subscriptions. That's a big chapter and unfortunately it's an uphill battle for consumers because pretty much everything is being turned into a regular, ongoing payment. Can't buy anything once anymore, it feels like. No, you know, whether it's entertainment or software that you may need, you know, it's, it's popping up in some really weird places too, like essentials, like food and non-essentials too.

[00:08:55] I mean, I wrote in the book that. You know, it's funny, when I was, when you got little kids, all of a sudden you get ads served to you about things like nappy subscriptions or formula subscriptions, things like that. And you just sort of think, well, this is now everywhere and and, and it can be a problem subscription.

[00:09:11] So that's definitely one. And then I. Another one that I wrote a chapter on, which I, I kind of, it's difficult food delivery. I just think it's such a massive problem and it's just going completely outta control at the moment. I mean, I wrote in the book that if I go down to my local Mexican joint and get a burrito, which I quite like doing sometimes, or compared with if I get it through Uber Eats, I mean, getting through Uber Eats costs 45% more.

[00:09:36] Molly: Oh my God.

[00:09:37] Chris: And it's already a bit of a splurge to go and get the, the takeaway food. So, you know, I think you do that regularly enough and it's, that's definitely a leak in your budget that, um, yeah. Nobody really wants to hear because sometimes you just wanna sit on the couch and get food delivered. I, I totally get it.

[00:09:54] Yeah. But that sort of thing done too often can become a big problem. I.

[00:09:58] Molly: Yeah, that's a huge markup. 45% as well. I have to say, the only subscription I love is my toilet paper subscription. Everything else, I'm like, no, no deal. And that's a good little reminder for people as well. If you haven't this year, get out your bank statement, look at those subscriptions, and also look at your phone subscriptions as well.

[00:10:18] We sign up to a lot of stuff on our phone these days, and I sat down with a couple the other day and we saved them almost. $50 a month just by canceling a whole bunch of subscriptions they have on their phone that they didn't even realize as well. It was crazy.

[00:10:31] Chris: Yeah, it can really add up and I mean, I give the banks a lot of grief and I give Apple a lot of grief, but there are ways you can go in there and just sort of toggle them off as well, and, and do a block payment on this one or that one.

[00:10:42] And, and so some of these apps for the banks, they actually have got some good user experience stuff in them now.

[00:10:49] Molly: Yeah, absolutely. And I, I do love how they break down your spending so you can actually see where your money is going, so you don't have to wonder where it went. What do you think is the most, I guess, socially accepted money habit in Australia that is costing Aussies a fortune?

[00:11:05] Chris: To me, it's gambling. And I say that, yeah, because I just think it's everywhere and in a way that it probably wasn't five or 10 years ago. I feel like we as a group of people have kind of blinked and it's really gotten past us and away from us now. It's a huge amount of money. I think if my memory serves, it's about 1200 bucks a year on average.

[00:11:26] So you know that we are losing as Australians, which is among the highest in the world per capita. You know, you've gotta consider that there are a lot of people out there who don't gamble at all. And so that average is, is lifted by the people that do, and it could be a significant amount of money. And it's kind of, it's all around us.

[00:11:42] You know, whether it's, you know, the online gambling apps, sports betting has really exploded. It seems like it's really kind of the parasite that's followed our appreciation of sport. But then you've also got things like pokies, which I wrote about in the book, and also lotteries, which are massive now, and, and it's been a really simple way of, of making those jackpots increase.

[00:12:04] And then, and then the marketing does its own thing there. I think it's a big problem. I don't really know what we're gonna do about that as Australians, but I just see the amount of money that's kind of going towards gambling and, and the sort of the wrecking ball that it can be through a lot of families is a massive issue.

[00:12:20] Molly: Oh, huge. And I think one of the scariest stats I was looking up during Melbourne Cup was just the, how early it's starting amongst Aussies as well. Like they're young and they're getting into gambling at a really young age, which is super scary for everything and their finances. But I always like to say, if you wanna be guaranteed to win the lotto, you know, just start investing that $21 you're spending on the lotto every week.

[00:12:45] Start investing that, and then, you know, by 30 years time you will have eventually won some kind of prize, but it will be your own money and it's, and there's a, there should be a guarantee there. Was there any point, I guess, in the book when you were researching and you were like, oh. Wow, they got me there too.

[00:13:03] I didn't realize that.

[00:13:05] Chris: Uh, well, I get got all the time. I mean, for somebody who wrote the book about this stuff, like I'm not perfect. Do as I say, definitely not as I do on this. I get got constantly, yeah. Look, there's a few of them that are kind of, I suppose, interesting in a way that I may not have sort of fully understand the, kind of the backstory of, I think drip pricing is very interesting.

[00:13:26] It's very hard to avoid, you know, if you're buying an airline ticket or if you're trying to go to a. A live concert.

[00:13:32] Molly: Mm.

[00:13:32] Chris: If they drip price you, it's very, very difficult. And the reason they're able to get away with it is 'cause you can't pick up your business and immediately take it somewhere else if you don't like it.

[00:13:39] And that's why those sorts of things thrive. But you know, you think about the backstory going right back to the railroads, particularly in North America and in the UK where. Where people were sold train tickets, and this was part of a mass migration of people and they were initially allowed to carry as much luggage as they wanted, and pretty soon that became a problem.

[00:14:00] And so it became kind of throttle and tiered and class systems emerged in the sort of the travel, but you just sort of see that, that those things that worked all those years ago, 150 plus years ago, still work and they're not that different anymore.

[00:14:15] Molly: Yeah.

[00:14:15] Chris: So, yeah, I, that sort of stuff was interesting to me going into it.

[00:14:18] I found the chapter, this is a totally separate thing, but I found the chapter on micro transactions in online gaming. Very interesting because I don't know anything about it. I don't game much. When I was playing video games, it was Nintendo 64, you know, banjo, Kazooie, and yeah. Stuff like that. But now it's, yeah,

[00:14:39] Molly: Petrus of the height of my video games.

[00:14:41] Chris: Yeah, Petre. Yeah. See that sort of thing.

[00:14:43] Molly: Yeah.

[00:14:44] Chris: Yeah. I mean, but these worlds are, um, are incredibly deep and, and, uh, lucrative now. And, and so I found it very interesting looking into that. That was the chapter that I had to sit down and do the most research on, 'cause I just had zero understanding.

[00:14:56] Molly: So, is that when you are gaming online and you are buying things for your online gaming?

[00:15:01] Yeah. Oh wow.

[00:15:02] Chris: Yeah, so we kind of know about some of these games, like if you say the, the name Fortnite or fifa, which is now fc. I mean, people are familiar with these games, but what's going on in them now is that their marketplaces primarily, you don't have to pay that much to play, but it is of course a subscription.

[00:15:18] But the way that they earn tons and tons of money is by selling inside the game. So if you want to have good players on your. Soccer team and you've gotta buy them. If you want to have a cool weapon in your shoot 'em up game, you've gotta buy it. And then you've gotta buy to customize it. And so money just goes flowing through and it's all quite.

[00:15:37] You know, there's a lot of behavioral psychology in that, which I don't really like. Like, you know, you're not spending money, you're spending tokens, you know, it's all clouded and there's not a whole lot of concern about whether or not the people spending the money are of, uh, children or adults. So I found that to be quite an interesting world to start looking into and really just scratching the surface because it is enormous.

[00:15:57] Molly: Oh my God. Yeah. I actually had no idea about that. And they're buying these invisible things which have no, yeah,

[00:16:04] Chris: and

[00:16:04] it

[00:16:04] Molly: So underlying assets, really.

[00:16:06] Chris: That's right. Exactly. And it's just pixels on a screen. But I think the problem for a lot of parents is to sort of not engage with 'em. Just think this is so ridiculous, but for a lot of young people, it's worth it in their mind.

[00:16:18] And so you have to kind of engage in this conversation about something much bigger, about, you know, the value of money and about. In whose eyes is it worth it? You know, is it peer pressure? Why are we buying these colorful skins or, or paint jobs for a, a gun in a game? I don't understand it, but yeah, there's something in there.

[00:16:36] So I think, you know, particularly if we're talking to the parents, it's, it's very interesting.

[00:16:41] Molly: Yeah. Wow. That blows my mind. Oh my gosh. Wow. I'm like extremely clever marketing, but very bad. Oh my God. For the consumer, I guess, what's one mental habit or bias that you think trips people? The most when it comes to spending.

[00:16:57] Chris: One of the ones, um, that I, I really am fascinated by is the kind of the process of paying for something. 'cause in within the space of basically a generation, cash has more or less disappeared. Yeah. And there's a, there's a graph in the book that shows in 2007 that it was like 70% of purchases made in cash, and now it's down to about 13%.

[00:17:16] And that was a couple years ago, so it could be even lower than that now. There's a whole lot of behavioral psychology in tapping to pay. Yeah, which we do all the time. I mentioned before that I get got all the time, and this is the thing, like I used to pay in cash and now I pay in card, and of course we know about the fees.

[00:17:31] There are lots of fees involved in that. The security and the convenience comes at a cost and that's reasonable, but. The sort of the mental stuff is fascinating to me and there's been a, a few academics who've written about what they call the pain of pain, which is that when we hand over a $50 note or a $20 note, there's a feeling there's a negative feeling for us associated with that.

[00:17:51] They say that it triggers the pain receptor in our brain in a very mild way. Whereas if we tap our credit card or our phone, that doesn't happen, right? Because it's not associated with it. And so in a way, we're able what these institutions and, and the sort of payments operators have been able to do, whether directly and knowingly or indirectly is sidestep this part of our kind of are almost prehistoric brains that that.

[00:18:17] It's a built-in brake pedal. You know, there's like mental accounting. If I'm standing at the counter and I'm pulling out the notes and I wanna buy a new pair of shorts or something, then there's this all this time that goes past where I'm thinking, do I really need this? Do I look good in these? You know, I've already got some shorts that are kind of like that.

[00:18:35] Molly: Yeah.

[00:18:35] Chris: Whereas the speed now, it takes half a second to pay for something. None of that mental arithmetic gets done anymore, and you're just already out the door. So I think. That was one of the chapters that I found really interesting. It's one of the longest chapters in the book. Yeah. Is about cash because, not just because, you know, it's been a change to the industry and how we operate when it comes to money, but, but the sort of the unintended consequences and how it's sort of looping our brain around a bit.

[00:19:00] Molly: Yeah, it's that invisible spending and that's what I think is gonna be so hard for that generation, you know, for our children's future where we are teaching them about money in a system that doesn't actually have physical money anymore. I feel like that's gonna be a, a tricky one to get better. I

[00:19:18] Chris: totally agree.

[00:19:19] Yeah. I'll be, I'll be listening for any tips on that 'cause uh, I've got two little kids and my God, that's a hard one. How do you teach kids about money? It's very difficult.

[00:19:27] Molly: Yeah, and I mean, we touched on gambling. So I guess if we look at loyalty programs, and I know you cover this in the book as well, but loyalty programs, as you say, they're sold as rewards, but you've said they almost never pay.

[00:19:40] So why do you think being a good customer often is the worst financial move?

[00:19:45] Chris: Well, it's kind of all backwards in a sense, because loyalty is never really rewarded in the traditional sense. In fact, it's the opposite in that if you're a flighty customer. You know, and you exercise your option to move your business around, and you are the one who's more likely to get a good deal, pretty much any industry.

[00:20:02] So this idea of loyalty and the sort of the trade off that happens there, I just think it's totally upside down. I think first things first, you should be. The person who goes, okay, that supermarket didn't do what I liked that time, I'm gonna go to the other one. Or the same with a, an airline or, or any other business that has a competitor.

[00:20:21] So the first thing that happens is that if you've got loyalty points and you are seeing a balance grow, then you are less likely to move around because then all of a sudden your points aren't gonna grow and your reward or perceived reward isn't gonna happen. Mm-hmm. And then the other side of it is that I think for the most part, and I can't say this for a hundred percent of loyalty programs, but I think for the majority of them, the exchange rate between your spend or your loyalty and the points that you get back is just bad.

[00:20:48] I just don't think they're paying what they should be.

[00:20:51] Molly: Yeah.

[00:20:52] Chris: For your loyalty. And of course, it's not out of the goodness of their hearts. They're using the data to build a, a kind of a, a detailed file on you as a consumer. And yeah, in the fine print of a lot of these services, they are able to share that with x, you know, outside bodies and, and use it to send you all kinds of things that you may or may not have wanted.

[00:21:13] And then of course there's the risk of being, um, involved in a data breach, which is a serious risk, and it means that you can get, um, targeted for a scam more directly because they've got information about you. So in my opinion, it's not worth it from really from the start to the finish loyalty two programs.

[00:21:30] Yeah. And I think a lot of people say, oh, well I'm spending anyway. Why wouldn't I get some reward? And I just think, well, unfortunately you are giving them quite a bit for, for not that many points really.

[00:21:40] Molly: And I do think it changes people's shopping behaviors as well. They say it doesn't, but like when you know you're getting a certain amount of points or you need to spend this much to get them this much, I do think it does a hundred percent.

[00:21:54] Whether we're, we realize it or not, it changes our spending habits for sure.

[00:21:58] Chris: Yeah.

[00:21:59] Molly: Yeah, I think that's right. I think it does too.

[00:22:01] Chris: I feel like such a downer when I have to say, when I say this stuff, like, you know what I mean?

[00:22:05] Molly: It's, I'm glad someone's saying it though, like you're doing oddie such a huge, like good on you.

[00:22:11] Like,

[00:22:12] Chris: well that's really nice of you to say because I feel like it's such a kind of a grinchy position to be in all the time. Is like this thing that you like is crap. Like all this sort of thing. You're like, you don't wanna be that guy. But unfortunately, like it's this lens that once you start looking through this lens of businesses, you can't stop.

[00:22:30] And I think it's a good lens, but it's, it makes you insufferable to sit next to it, like Christmas dinner or something like that.

[00:22:38] Molly: Well, I know I got over my last loyalty program 'cause I had spent like $2,000 with this one large shopping group in Australia and I was like. $5 off. Are you kidding me? Oh my God.

[00:22:50] I was like even finding my card each time to do it, I was like, not worth it. So I'm interested as well, like obviously you've been a financial journalist for a very long time. What we see a bit in the media and it is changing that. It's probably not changing fast enough, like is, women are often told, look, they're not great with money or there's, you know, very simple ways to save money.

[00:23:12] It's very focused on saving, a lot less focused on investing, but like how much, I guess. Of that is actually the system rather than personal financial failure.

[00:23:24] Chris: Well, I certainly wouldn't say that women are, are in any way more likely to fail when it comes to money than men. In fact, I think probably the opposite's true.

[00:23:32] Molly: We're very good at money. Yeah.

[00:23:34] Chris: Why? I actually think without, I mean it sounds patronizing to say, but I think it's true. Like I think a lot of households, the money is going through the, the kind of the, the woman's side of things and they're kind of organizing a lot of the regular in incomings and outgoings.

[00:23:48] You don't have to look that far to see things like gambling is more of a problem for men than it is for women. I think a lot of the problem with the investing world is that it is geared towards men and that, and there's deliberately or non deliberately a lot of intimidation that comes with it. Mm-hmm.

[00:24:04] Molly: And that

[00:24:04] Chris: it's impenetrable and that it's, you know, you're not gonna get it. It's our thing.

[00:24:09] Molly: Yeah.

[00:24:09] Chris: It's a kind of a nebulous world that's really very tricky.

[00:24:12] Molly: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:13] Chris: I think. Increasingly, there are more and more organizations out there that are looking to kind of, to change that. Yours being a really great example where you can kind of break things down and you can look at them in a pretty safe and kind of bite-sized however you like kind of environment.

[00:24:29] But I, no, I think you're right in that the conversation has been to as sort of been one way for a long time. I think it's changing now. Probably got a bit further to go, but yeah. Yeah, I think that the sort of the, the intimidation that comes with finance and, and particularly investing has been a problem and cost a lot of people money.

[00:24:46] Molly: Yeah. And as I always like to point out out as well, the research shows that women actually do make really good investors. We generally outperform men as well, which. I think doesn't get enough screen time

[00:24:58] Chris: just on that. Is it because they're less likely to treat it as a kind of a gamble?

[00:25:02] Molly: Yeah.

[00:25:03] Chris: Or is it sort of, is it like that?

[00:25:04] It's a long-term view?

[00:25:06] Molly: Yeah. So a couple of things. So it's a long-term view. So we've got our goals and we stick to them. We understand that the market's gonna go up and down, but we check it less. So we're less impulsive and that's the main thing. So I remember speaking to one of the roboadvisors in the UK when I was living there, and they can see the stats on the men versus women.

[00:25:26] And women were just checking their investments. A lot less Men were checking it every day, and so making less impulsive decisions, which was interesting. But not that surprising. Great. That's really interesting. But funny that we get called the emotional one. Yeah. I always think that's funny because that's true.

[00:25:39] Yeah. Yeah. You're like, well, actually we're not. There was just two other kind of areas I just wanted to touch on as well. Property being a big one. So obviously we're in this very interesting, I mean, you know, when I was in Canberra earlier last year, um, I spoke to the minister of. For housing and she was pretty much like, we've been in a property crisis since the eighties, like this has been a long term issue.

[00:26:04] So I guess through the lens of this book, how do you think the property system gets people emotionally, not just financially?

[00:26:10] Chris: So, I mean, you could kind of spend. A long time talking about the various avenues in which that the property issues kind of drive us into other issues in, in the Australian economy.

[00:26:20] Molly: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:20] Chris: But as for how it affects people really directly, I mean, obviously there's the wealth creation element that has been done. Sort of in a way, I mean, it's still happening, but it, it was sort of, that was a real generational moment where everybody's house went from being, you know, couple hundred or a hundred thousand dollars to being a couple of million dollars when other things aren't appreciating at the same rate.

[00:26:40] That's obviously, that's huge for, you know, Australian society and, you know, basically intergenerational wealth, full stop. But then I think there's, um, the stuff that's happening now, and I, and one of the things I write about in the book is, um, is this thing called the apartment fallacy.

[00:26:54] Molly: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:54] Chris: As I see it.

[00:26:56] There's pretty good data to show that the inflation of property prices is so uneven, and we look at things kind of very broadly citywide nationally, and it all looks pretty good. But if you drill into it a bit, you can see that over the past eight to 10 to 15 years, a lot of the apartments that have been bought have not appreciated.

[00:27:16] Either at all or in any way, the same sort of size as, um, as houses. And so I think what you get is, and you know, some examples that I'm, I'm speaking to in Melbourne, CBD at the moment, I'm looking out my window. Now, a lot of these buildings I know from the data, I mean 50% of them have gone down in value over the last.

[00:27:35] Years, which for somebody who's invested in them, I mean that's catastrophic. Obviously in, in Sydney's West it's kind of, you know, in some parts of it, it's one in three Melbourne more broadly. I think it's one in one in five units and apartments. So I just think it's not talked about enough, the massive differences in these sorts of things.

[00:27:54] You know, that leads you into this kind of whole psychological debate about whether or not it's a good idea to buy these properties. And the question is, what are you hoping to get out of it? Because to say to somebody, Hey, you shouldn't buy a property. Because you can't buy a detached house, 10 Ks from the CBD.

[00:28:08] I mean, that's a horrible thing to say to somebody because Renting's got some problems with it too, and, and owning a home, even if it's a unit or an apartment that's not performing particularly well, that's control. You can stay in it for as long as you want. You can paint the walls or you can have a dog if you like.

[00:28:23] Well, it kind of becomes this. This really deep conversation about what a property's meant to be and what they have been, what they should be going forward, because we are increasing density very quickly and a lot of what we're building is apartments and units, which if you look through the recent history, they just don't perform that well financially.

[00:28:40] So who are we asking to buy these things? What sort of. Cleve is this making through the property market and, and how's that going to kind of, you know, how's that gonna echo in years to come? So the sort of the property thing for me. And then of course you've got things like what real estate agents do, what buyer advocates do, vendors, advocates, the way things are charged.

[00:29:00] Mortgages, there's another chapter on that. I mean, again, you can kind of go any direction here, but it's. That's a very big part of the conversation.

[00:29:07] Molly: Yeah, absolutely. And I know that is a big question, so I wanted to just do a quick fire round. So I'm just gonna throw some words at you so they don't need long explanations.

[00:29:18] Just kind of like the gut reactions on, um, what the real, the tri are. So I've got about, I think I've got about seven words. Can I shoot two?

[00:29:27] Chris: Yeah, of course.

[00:29:28] Molly: Okay, awesome. So first one is credit cards,

[00:29:32] Chris: please. I say fees because, and I, I'm doing the wrong thing because everyone thinks about the interest, but nobody ever thinks about the fees and there are usually fees attached.

[00:29:40] Yeah. So yeah, that's the one for that.

[00:29:42] Molly: Buy now. Pay later.

[00:29:44] Chris: Oh, I mean it's, I just think it's everywhere and I think it's debt. I think people so often just think it's, um, it's my own money, just access a different way. But no, you, you're taking on debt and I just think it's debt marketed in a new and interesting way.

[00:29:57] Molly: Absolutely. We've got convenience.

[00:30:01] Chris: Expensive.

[00:30:02] Molly: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:03] Chris: Unfortunately,

[00:30:05] Molly: subscriptions.

[00:30:08] Chris: Subscriptions, unavoidable is probably the word I feel like comes with that. And it's so frustrating because trying to buy things once, as I said before, is. Like, what choice do you have? It's on the, it's on the business. I do hope that in the future, more and more businesses will kind of have a selling point of, you can buy this once and you don't need to give us your information, but I worry about them.

[00:30:29] Molly: Mm-hmm. Superannuation

[00:30:31] Chris: forgotten. I think, um, people just sort of put it to the side and. Spend years without kind of perhaps changing it or, or hassling them or, yeah. I mean, I follow some of the, the ASIC stuff, you know, and, and they're not, a lot of 'em are not doing particularly well, but there's a few trillion dollars of our money sloshing around in there, so, yeah.

[00:30:52] Forgotten.

[00:30:53] Molly: That's a huge amount. And gambling apps

[00:30:56] Chris: poison. I would love to see them go away. I think they've really exploded and I think it's, it's almost exclusively bad news.

[00:31:04] Molly: Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, hopefully we'll see some changes in um Parliament soon. On those gambling laws 'cause they need to be updated.

[00:31:14] So if someone is listening to this, they feel behind or maybe a little bit embarrassed about their money, what is one small empowering step they can take today to start turning things around?

[00:31:25] Chris: I, so I've got this policy of what I kind of call a hell day.

[00:31:29] Molly: Yeah.

[00:31:30] Chris: Which is um, which is where you basically, you put together a whole lot of the things that are on your financial to-do list and you dedicate a day.

[00:31:38] Can be a little way off. You know, give yourself a few weeks to sort of mentally gear up to it, you know? But whether it's, you know, ask your bank for a better interest rate on your savings, talk to your car insurance company, you know, see if you can get a better deal on that. Don't try to put everything.

[00:31:55] On that list, but pick a few, pick three or four things and put 'em in a pile, and then arrive at that hell day and sit down with your phone in your hand and make the calls, or do what you need to do to try to get yourself a better deal. And there's a lot of resources online to sort of say, here's what you say.

[00:32:10] Yeah,

[00:32:10] Molly: you

[00:32:10] Chris: know, here's how you go about it. And I think that that's probably the best thing you can do. Have a hell day every so often, and see if you can change your regular, outgoing expenses and, and save a bit of money.

[00:32:21] Molly: Absolutely. And I also love to gamify that go. Okay. I wonder if I can save over $200 if I call up these three companies.

[00:32:30] 'cause I know like I'm a big one on, you know, you've gotta be checking and negotiating on your private health insurance at least yearly, likewise with your home insurance. And they people save. Like you're literally gonna save money doing this. What a great incentive to have your hell day.

[00:32:46] Chris: It's so true, Molly.

[00:32:47] I mean, you walk away with a real spring in your step. I I you're sort of like, whew, here, here, look at me. Go. I saved all this money. And, and you're right because you, if you know you should be doing it, say annually, um, yeah. It's so easy to just forget about and just like push it outta your mind because it's, you're irritating.

[00:33:02] But if you kind of, if you stop it from being this sort of trickle, oh, I've gotta do this, I've gotta do that. If you sort of pile it into one day, you can get a lot done, I find.

[00:33:10] Molly: Yeah. And I was on the phone to my bank the other day about a completely different issue. And then I just said, you've charged me quite a few international fees.

[00:33:16] Can I have those fees back? And they're like, oh no. And I said, could you just check with your manager? And he came back. He goes, yeah, we can give you $126 back. And I said, I'll take it. Yes, please. Thank you. Like literally pays to ask.

[00:33:31] Chris: It's just unfortunate that this is the way it, the way it has to be because nobody wants to spend time on the phone to their bank or, and you know, you, you kind of feel for introverted people who find it particularly difficult and anti confrontational people because they're probably not gonna get that cut through.

[00:33:44] And, um, finally there was a service where you could, you know, somebody could do it for you.

[00:33:49] Molly: I, yeah, yeah. But I would say the worst case scenario is they say no. So even if you are introverting like, guys, I can't see you. It's all right. So just to wrap up with our final question. After everything you've uncovered through the book and through your research, what is the one thing you wish Australians had been taught about money earlier?

[00:34:09] I.

[00:34:11] Chris: Look, I, I just think there's not enough, there's not enough talk about investing about how it works. I quite often am, am talking to people and you know, they say, well, they, you know, they wanna engage in a conversation about it and they want to kind of know where to start. And it's kind of hard to know where to point them.

[00:34:28] As a real starting point, as a thing to read or a place to go to learn about, okay, what does it mean to start an investing portfolio? What do they buy and what is brokerage and, and how long is a reasonable hold period? And what's a dividend? And what's franking credits and this sort of stuff. And unfortunately it's not really taught at all in any way that I experienced at school.

[00:34:50] And when you left, when I left and went to uni, I mean, it was kind of like, no, no one's gonna teach you in a journalism course what that sort of stuff is. So it seems like it's, um, you know, it's so important because as you know, and, and you talk about so often the, the long term investing, it's how to get.

[00:35:06] Success in, you know, in your life.

[00:35:09] Molly: Yeah.

[00:35:09] Chris: And so I think the lack of that means that people are more susceptible to things like get rich quick schemes and, and gambling and, and just, you know, yeah. Buying a lottery ticket. And I think that if people had a better sense of how compounding interest could work and how kind of ETFs are a kind of, a pretty good way to, to diversify instantly.

[00:35:29] I mean, these sorts of things I just don't see as being taught. So. I would hope you know that there's a good chance for the people out there in the future to get that information and I'm, I'm really glad that there are sort of podcasters like you who are doing that sort of work. Yeah, I think there's definitely more to be done though, I guess.

[00:35:46] Molly: Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for coming on today, Chris, and thank you for the work you've done in this book as well. Just a quick rundown, where can people buy the book and also where can they follow you online? Which I highly recommend 'cause Chris is hilarious.

[00:36:02] Chris: Well, first of all, thank you for having me.

[00:36:03] It's been a pleasure. I love doing this and talking about this sort of stuff. You can buy the book, how they get you in kind of all good bookshops and online at the moment. It's also in an ebook and audiobook if you, you are buying it overseas or anywhere like that. And then you can follow me on Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok at at chris Cole News.

[00:36:22] Molly: Awesome. Great. Thank you so much, Chris. I love how people always say at any good bookshop, 'cause they're like, if it doesn't have my book, it's not gonna be good. So thank you. No,

[00:36:30] Chris: it's so true and it's such a subtle burn because I was in Sydney the other day and there were two bookshops across the road.

[00:36:36] One of them had my book and one of them didn't. And yes, I went in and had a look and the one that didn't, I was like, I'm sorry, you're just not that good of a book.

[00:36:43] Molly: Yeah. And that's what you have to go in and request your own book is why you get, do you have that book by, um. K. Uh, yeah. What's his name? That one?

[00:36:52] Yeah. Oh, okay. You should order some of those in. Yeah, that's what my mom used to do. Yeah.

[00:36:57] Chris: Yeah. It's look, and you know, my mother-in-law goes around and she goes into bookshops and if it's not prominently placed, she'll like move my book and like put it somewhere more on the eye line. Just the best. My

[00:37:09] Molly: mom was up for me and my sister's book as well.

[00:37:11] It's hilarious. We're like, Hey, we're not, we're not hating it. So go for it. But thank you so much.

[00:37:17] Chris: It.

 

KEYWORDS

finance, money management, investing, subscriptions, gambling, loyalty programs, property market, financial education, budgeting, consumer rights